Hans Christian Riksheim
Backup of file attributes Windows
November 22, 2017 04:59AM
When our customers changes permissions on their file servers there is total
chaos with new full backup of everything and no practical method to get rid
of the extra backup data. I think our customers should be able to do this
without paying twice as much for their backups.

From what I have heard TSM couldn't just update these files because there
is too much overhead keeping this information in the database. However in
the meantime TSM has gone from the proprietary database in v5 to a full DB2
which should handle this well.

It would be nice if IBM took a look at this problem and came up with a
solution. Don't know if other TSM admins think this is an issue though.

Hans Chr. Riksheim
This message was imported via the External PhorumMail Module
Marc Lanteigne
Re: Backup of file attributes Windows
November 22, 2017 05:59AM
Hi Hans,

File permissions are part of the file, on the filesystem, they are stored
inside the file. When backed up, the whole file is backed up, which
includes the permissions. The permissions are not stored in the server
database. That's why the entire file is backed up. It would be different
if file permissions were stored outside the file, then Spectrum Protect
could backup just the permissions.

Also, the permissions are needed for the restore. So if an admin does a
mistake while updating the permissions, they can restore the previous
version with the previous permission. If the permissions were updated on
the file without backing it up, it would be impossible to restore the
previous permissions.

It would also be near impossible to update permissions on existing backups.
Tapes are sequential, so it's impossible to do an update to the file on an
existing tape. The same applies for file pools. Furthermore, the server
doesn't know what the data is, it's unaware of permissions, it's just
storing bytes for the client.

-
Thanks,
Marc...
________________________________________________________
Marc Lanteigne
Accelerated Value Specialist for Spectrum Protect
416.478.0233 | marclanteigne@ca.ibm.com
Office Hours: Monday to Friday, 7:00 to 16:00 Eastern

Follow me on: Twitter, developerWorks, LinkedIn


-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Christian Riksheim [mailto:bullhcr@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:48 AM
To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: [ADSM-L] Backup of file attributes Windows

When our customers changes permissions on their file servers there is total
chaos with new full backup of everything and no practical method to get rid
of the extra backup data. I think our customers should be able to do this
without paying twice as much for their backups.

From what I have heard TSM couldn't just update these files because there
is too much overhead keeping this information in the database. However in
the meantime TSM has gone from the proprietary database in v5 to a full DB2
which should handle this well.

It would be nice if IBM took a look at this problem and came up with a
solution. Don't know if other TSM admins think this is an issue though.

Hans Chr. Riksheim
This message was imported via the External PhorumMail Module
Hans Christian Riksheim
Re: Backup of file attributes Windows
November 22, 2017 05:59AM
Hi Marc.

So it is not theoretically possible to isolate the permission part and keep
that versioned in the TSM database? Is there any other way to avoid the
problem mentioned(dedup would take care of the doubling of backup data but
is not applicable to our setup).

Hans Chr.

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Marc Lanteigne <marclanteigne@ca.ibm.com>
wrote:

> Hi Hans,
>
> File permissions are part of the file, on the filesystem, they are stored
> inside the file. When backed up, the whole file is backed up, which
> includes the permissions. The permissions are not stored in the server
> database. That's why the entire file is backed up. It would be different
> if file permissions were stored outside the file, then Spectrum Protect
> could backup just the permissions.
>
> Also, the permissions are needed for the restore. So if an admin does a
> mistake while updating the permissions, they can restore the previous
> version with the previous permission. If the permissions were updated on
> the file without backing it up, it would be impossible to restore the
> previous permissions.
>
> It would also be near impossible to update permissions on existing backups.
> Tapes are sequential, so it's impossible to do an update to the file on an
> existing tape. The same applies for file pools. Furthermore, the server
> doesn't know what the data is, it's unaware of permissions, it's just
> storing bytes for the client.
>
> -
> Thanks,
> Marc...
> ________________________________________________________
> Marc Lanteigne
> Accelerated Value Specialist for Spectrum Protect
> 416.478.0233 | marclanteigne@ca.ibm.com
> Office Hours: Monday to Friday, 7:00 to 16:00 Eastern
>
> Follow me on: Twitter, developerWorks, LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hans Christian Riksheim [mailto:bullhcr@GMAIL.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:48 AM
> To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject: [ADSM-L] Backup of file attributes Windows
>
> When our customers changes permissions on their file servers there is total
> chaos with new full backup of everything and no practical method to get rid
> of the extra backup data. I think our customers should be able to do this
> without paying twice as much for their backups.
>
> From what I have heard TSM couldn't just update these files because there
> is too much overhead keeping this information in the database. However in
> the meantime TSM has gone from the proprietary database in v5 to a full DB2
> which should handle this well.
>
> It would be nice if IBM took a look at this problem and came up with a
> solution. Don't know if other TSM admins think this is an issue though.
>
> Hans Chr. Riksheim
>
This message was imported via the External PhorumMail Module
Marc Lanteigne
Re: Backup of file attributes Windows
November 22, 2017 05:59AM
That’s correct.

It’s possible to skip the permissions, but as a previous sysadmin that had to restore permissions from backup, I’d advised against that.

Sent from my iPhone using IBM Verse

On Nov 22, 2017, 9:14:08 AM, bullhcr@GMAIL.COM wrote:

From: bullhcr@GMAIL.COM
To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Cc:
Date: Nov 22, 2017, 9:14:08 AM
Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Backup of file attributes Windows


Hi Marc.
So it is not theoretically possible to isolate the permission part and keep
that versioned in the TSM database? Is there any other way to avoid the
problem mentioned(dedup would take care of the doubling of backup data but
is not applicable to our setup).
Hans Chr.
On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Marc Lanteigne
wrote:
> Hi Hans,
>
> File permissions are part of the file, on the filesystem, they are stored
> inside the file. When backed up, the whole file is backed up, which
> includes the permissions. The permissions are not stored in the server
> database. That's why the entire file is backed up. It would be different
> if file permissions were stored outside the file, then Spectrum Protect
> could backup just the permissions.
>
> Also, the permissions are needed for the restore. So if an admin does a
> mistake while updating the permissions, they can restore the previous
> version with the previous permission. If the permissions were updated on
> the file without backing it up, it would be impossible to restore the
> previous permissions.
>
> It would also be near impossible to update permissions on existing backups.
> Tapes are sequential, so it's impossible to do an update to the file on an
> existing tape. The same applies for file pools. Furthermore, the server
> doesn't know what the data is, it's unaware of permissions, it's just
> storing bytes for the client.
>
> -
> Thanks,
> Marc...
> ________________________________________________________
> Marc Lanteigne
> Accelerated Value Specialist for Spectrum Protect
> 416.478.0233 | marclanteigne@ca.ibm.com
> Office Hours: Monday to Friday, 7:00 to 16:00 Eastern
>
> Follow me on: Twitter, developerWorks, LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hans Christian Riksheim [mailto:bullhcr@GMAIL.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:48 AM
> To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject: [ADSM-L] Backup of file attributes Windows
>
> When our customers changes permissions on their file servers there is total
> chaos with new full backup of everything and no practical method to get rid
> of the extra backup data. I think our customers should be able to do this
> without paying twice as much for their backups.
>
> From what I have heard TSM couldn't just update these files because there
> is too much overhead keeping this information in the database. However in
> the meantime TSM has gone from the proprietary database in v5 to a full DB2
> which should handle this well.
>
> It would be nice if IBM took a look at this problem and came up with a
> solution. Don't know if other TSM admins think this is an issue though.
>
> Hans Chr. Riksheim
>
This message was imported via the External PhorumMail Module
Reese, Michael A (Mike) CIV USARMY 21 SIG BDE (US)
Re: Backup of file attributes Windows
November 22, 2017 08:59AM
Hi Hans,

I've been snagged by this on many occasions myself. The worst time was when 40 TB of data had to get backed up again because a system admin made a simple permission change at the root directory.

I agree with you that since TSM now uses DB2 for its database, it should be able to handle storing permissions for Windows clients in the TSM database, just like it does for Linux clients. If you're willing to create an RFE, I'll vote for it!

Mike Reese


-----Original Message-----
From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Hans Christian Riksheim
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 7:44 AM
To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [ADSM-L] Backup of file attributes Windows

When our customers changes permissions on their file servers there is total chaos with new full backup of everything and no practical method to get rid of the extra backup data. I think our customers should be able to do this without paying twice as much for their backups.

From what I have heard TSM couldn't just update these files because there is too much overhead keeping this information in the database. However in the meantime TSM has gone from the proprietary database in v5 to a full DB2 which should handle this well.

It would be nice if IBM took a look at this problem and came up with a solution. Don't know if other TSM admins think this is an issue though.

Hans Chr. Riksheim
This message was imported via the External PhorumMail Module
Harris, Steven
Re: Backup of file attributes Windows
November 22, 2017 01:59PM
I haven’t used it for some years now, but the old Domino client used to store two entries for each client, one for the data and one for the permissions. It would probably go against the TSM (Hate the new name!) philosophy to store any client data in the database, but this case might be a reasonable exception.

Cheers

Steve

Steven Harris
TSM Admin/Consultant
Canberra Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Reese, Michael A (Mike) CIV USARMY 21 SIG BDE (US)
Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2017 3:08 AM
To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Backup of file attributes Windows

Hi Hans,

I've been snagged by this on many occasions myself. The worst time was when 40 TB of data had to get backed up again because a system admin made a simple permission change at the root directory.

I agree with you that since TSM now uses DB2 for its database, it should be able to handle storing permissions for Windows clients in the TSM database, just like it does for Linux clients. If you're willing to create an RFE, I'll vote for it!

Mike Reese


-----Original Message-----
From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Hans Christian Riksheim
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 7:44 AM
To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [ADSM-L] Backup of file attributes Windows

When our customers changes permissions on their file servers there is total chaos with new full backup of everything and no practical method to get rid of the extra backup data. I think our customers should be able to do this without paying twice as much for their backups.

From what I have heard TSM couldn't just update these files because there is too much overhead keeping this information in the database. However in the meantime TSM has gone from the proprietary database in v5 to a full DB2 which should handle this well.

It would be nice if IBM took a look at this problem and came up with a solution. Don't know if other TSM admins think this is an issue though.

Hans Chr. Riksheim


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This message was imported via the External PhorumMail Module
Henrik Ahlgren
Re: Backup of file attributes Windows
December 01, 2017 02:59AM
On Wed, 2017-11-22 at 16:08 +0000, Reese, Michael A (Mike) CIV USARMY 21
SIG BDE (US) wrote:
> I've been snagged by this on many occasions myself. The worst time was when 40 TB of data had to get backed up again because a system admin made a simple permission change at the root directory.
>
> I agree with you that since TSM now uses DB2 for its database, it should be able to handle storing permissions for Windows clients in the TSM database, just like it does for Linux clients. If you're willing to create an RFE, I'll vote for it!

I would argue that the way it works with Unix and Linux is way worse:
only the latest "version" of permissions is stored. Yes, it's nice that
something like "chgrp -R foo /large/tree" does not trigger a huge
backup, but I almost consider it to be a fundamental design flaw of TSM
that you cannot restore old permissions on POSIX platforms.
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