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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

Posted by Anonymous 
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 06, 2008 05:12PM
Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to the XioTech SAN.
We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those two bubbled up to the top.

I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering that looks cool. Both look appealing.

I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has been with either DD or Quantum.

I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.

Thanks,

~ Robin
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 06:38AM
We have been running Data Domain since last March, and it is working well.
we are getting bytes/storage used of 19.6
We are not using VTL.
----------------------------------
Carl Stehman
Distributed Services
Pepcoholdings, Inc.
701 Ninth St NW
Washington DC 20068
202-331-6619
------------------------------------

[b]Robin Small <Robin.Small < at > fresno.gov>[/b]
Sent by: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
11/06/2008 08:15 PM To
"VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu" <VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu> cc
Subject
[Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to the XioTech SAN.
We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those two bubbled up to the top.

I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering that looks cool. Both look appealing.

I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has been with either DD or Quantum.

I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.

Thanks,

~ Robin
_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

This Email message and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, legally privileged, confidential and/or subject to copyright belonging to Pepco Holdings, Inc. or its affiliates ("PHI"). This Email is intended solely for the use of the person(s) to which it is addressed. If you are not an intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this Email to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this Email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete this Email and any copies. PHI policies expressly prohibit employees from making defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by Email communication. PHI will not accept any liability in respect of such communications.
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 08:46AM
We&#8217;ve been using two DDs for a year now. Its deduplication/compression claims are valid. We use one for UNIX backups and one for Linux backups.

We&#8217;ve had some challenges because we&#8217;d intended to do fibre but found out the fibre options for DD are extra but got left out of our original order. Due to that we&#8217;ve pushed most of our traffic over GigE instead.

We recently bought a much larger DD with an eye to moving our Production Oracle DB backup to it.

[b]From:[/b] veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu [mailto] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]ckstehman < at > pepco.com
[b]Sent:[/b] Friday, November 07, 2008 9:36 AM
[b]To:[/b] Robin Small
[b]Cc:[/b] VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu; veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

We have been running Data Domain since last March, and it is working well.
we are getting bytes/storage used of 19.6
We are not using VTL.
----------------------------------
Carl Stehman
Distributed Services
Pepcoholdings, Inc.
701 Ninth St NW
Washington DC 20068
202-331-6619
------------------------------------

[b]Robin Small <Robin.Small < at > fresno.gov>[/b]
Sent by: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
11/06/2008 08:15 PM
To
"VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu" <VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu>
cc

Subject
[Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to the XioTech SAN.
We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those two bubbled up to the top.

I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering that looks cool. Both look appealing.

I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has been with either DD or Quantum.

I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.

Thanks,

~ Robin
_______________________________________________
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http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

This Email message and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, legally privileged, confidential and/or subject to copyright belonging to Pepco Holdings, Inc. or its affiliates ("PHI"). This Email is intended solely for the use of the person(s) to which it is addressed. If you are not an intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this Email to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this Email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete this Email and any copies. PHI policies expressly prohibit employees from making defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by Email communication. PHI will not accept any liability in respect of such communications.

----------------------------------
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you.
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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 10:06AM
Oops meant to say we use one for UNIX/Linux backups and one for Windows backups.

[b]From:[/b] veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu [mailto] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Jeff Lightner
[b]Sent:[/b] Friday, November 07, 2008 11:44 AM
[b]To:[/b] ckstehman < at > pepco.com; Robin Small
[b]Cc:[/b] VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu; veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

We&#8217;ve been using two DDs for a year now. Its deduplication/compression claims are valid. We use one for UNIX backups and one for Linux backups.

We&#8217;ve had some challenges because we&#8217;d intended to do fibre but found out the fibre options for DD are extra but got left out of our original order. Due to that we&#8217;ve pushed most of our traffic over GigE instead.

We recently bought a much larger DD with an eye to moving our Production Oracle DB backup to it.

[b]From:[/b] veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu [mailto] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]ckstehman < at > pepco.com
[b]Sent:[/b] Friday, November 07, 2008 9:36 AM
[b]To:[/b] Robin Small
[b]Cc:[/b] VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu; veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

We have been running Data Domain since last March, and it is working well.
we are getting bytes/storage used of 19.6
We are not using VTL.
----------------------------------
Carl Stehman
Distributed Services
Pepcoholdings, Inc.
701 Ninth St NW
Washington DC 20068
202-331-6619
------------------------------------

[b]Robin Small <Robin.Small < at > fresno.gov>[/b]
Sent by: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
11/06/2008 08:15 PM
To
"VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu" <VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu>
cc

Subject
[Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to the XioTech SAN.
We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those two bubbled up to the top.

I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering that looks cool. Both look appealing.

I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has been with either DD or Quantum.

I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.

Thanks,

~ Robin
_______________________________________________
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http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

This Email message and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, legally privileged, confidential and/or subject to copyright belonging to Pepco Holdings, Inc. or its affiliates ("PHI"). This Email is intended solely for the use of the person(s) to which it is addressed. If you are not an intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this Email to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this Email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete this Email and any copies. PHI policies expressly prohibit employees from making defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by Email communication. PHI will not accept any liability in respect of such communications.

----------------------------------
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you.
----------------------------------
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 11:10AM
I just wrapped up a pretty in depth review of both Data Domain and
Quantum/EMC and ended up purchasing the 7500's from Quantum.

Few thoughts:

- Data Domain seemed to be pushing the NAS/CIFS side a lot more than
their VTL. OpenStorage is great and all but you limit yourself to LAN
speeds. We definitely wanted to go VTL for the 4Gb. Quantum has been
in the VTL game longer and I liked how they were doing it better. In
remote sites where you might not have a SAN environment/TBs of data it
might not be as big of a deal.

- Quantum owns the Rocksoft dedupe patent and Data Domain (short version
of the story) licenses it from them. If anyone is going to optimize the
algorithm in future versions I seriously doubt it's going to be DD.

- Yeah, the DD does inline dedupe 'better' but for the most part we have
relatively quiet times during the day when only Oracle log file grooming
is running where post processing is free to do it's thing. I don't have
my notes in front of me with the numbers but the post-proc ingest rate
of the 7500 is higher than the inline ingest rate of the 690. We don't
really have the need for up to the second replication of tape.
Replicating the 7500 namespace once per day is fine as we currently only
offsite physical tape once per day. Backups are not expected to be an
up to the minute RTO, we have SRDF, etc for critical systems like that
if the walls fall down.

- The 7500 scales better than the DD690 IMHO. The 690 goes to, I
believe, ~25TB and the 7500 to 180TB. DD wanted to sell us multiple 690
heads to meet the throughput of the 7500. The downside of that is when
you have multiple heads you don't get a common block pool. So you
backup the same block of data to one head and it is also stored on the
second head and your global dedupe ratio is reduced. There is supposed
to be a solution for this in the future (I don't believe this is NDA)
but how it will work and what it does for performance, etc I don't know.

- RAID 6 - DD does it, Quantum/EMC currently doesn't. Is it that big of
a deal? We haven't had a drive failure yet. I'm sure rebuild times
will be dependent upon how hard you are hitting it. If you have a less
busy time it might not matter at all, if you are driving it full speed
24x7 it might.

Robin - Feel free to drop me an email directly if you want to ask me
anything.

Geoff Stafford
Barclaycard US
Data Protection Engineering
office:
mobile:

Barclays www.barclaycardus.com

This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain confidential and/or proprietary information. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient. Unauthorized use of this information is prohibited. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender by replying to this message and delete this material from any system it may be on.

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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 12:10PM
if you can wait a little while , there will be some interesting solutions in this arena soon.

[quote]Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to the XioTech SAN.
We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those two bubbled up to the top.

I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering that looks cool. Both look appealing.

I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has been with either DD or Quantum.

I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.

Thanks,

~ Robin[/quote]
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 12:44PM
http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:QTM

I have $1… I’ll take 3 shares and my change please.

Mark Glazerman
Desk: 314-889-8282
Cell: 618-520-3401
 please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu [mailto] On Behalf Of oersted
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:11 PM
To: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

if you can wait a little while , there will be some interesting solutions in this arena soon.

Robin Small wrote:
[quote]Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to the XioTech SAN.
We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those two bubbled up to the top.

I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering that looks cool. Both look appealing.

I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has been with either DD or Quantum.

I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.

Thanks,

~ Robin
[/quote]

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|Forward SPAM to abuse < at > backupcentral.com.
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_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 01:50PM
Ouch!

Funny - it made me lookup up DD's symbol - Their NASDAQ symbol is "DDUP". Gotta love that.

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu [mailto] On Behalf Of Mark Glazerman
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:41 PM
To: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:QTM

I have $1… I’ll take 3 shares and my change please.

Mark Glazerman
Desk: 314-889-8282
Cell: 618-520-3401
 please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu [mailto] On Behalf Of oersted
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:11 PM
To: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

if you can wait a little while , there will be some interesting solutions in this arena soon.

Robin Small wrote:
[quote]Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to the XioTech SAN.
We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those two bubbled up to the top.

I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering that looks cool. Both look appealing.

I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has been with either DD or Quantum.

I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.

Thanks,

~ Robin
[/quote]

+----------------------------------------------------------------------
|This was sent by solaris < at > cablespeed.com via Backup Central.
|Forward SPAM to abuse < at > backupcentral.com.
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http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
----------------------------------
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you.
----------------------------------

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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 03:02PM
Careful Mark, remember that you get what you pay for. =)

- John Nardello

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
[mailto] On Behalf Of Mark
Glazerman
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:41 PM
To: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:QTM

I have $1... I'll take 3 shares and my change please.

Mark Glazerman
Desk: 314-889-8282
Cell: 618-520-3401
P please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
[mailto] On Behalf Of oersted
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:11 PM
To: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

if you can wait a little while , there will be some interesting
solutions in this arena soon.

Robin Small wrote:
[quote]Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to
[/quote]the XioTech SAN.
[quote]We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those
[/quote]two bubbled up to the top.
[quote]
I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk
[/quote]about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering
that looks cool. Both look appealing.
[quote]
I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has
[/quote]been with either DD or Quantum.
[quote]
I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it
[/quote]that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure
inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the
prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.
[quote]
Thanks,

~ Robin
[/quote]

+----------------------------------------------------------------------
|This was sent by solaris < at > cablespeed.com via Backup Central.
|Forward SPAM to abuse < at > backupcentral.com.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
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http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

_______________________________________________
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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 03:16PM
That’s why we've been using Data Domain for over 2 years and couldn't be happier with the product.

I have to confess to not knowing a huge amount about Quantum but reading some of the earlier replies, I wonder why anyone would replace tape with a disk based storage unit, only to configure that DSU to act just like a bunch of tape drives. The NFS / CIFS options from DD work very well for our mixed environment (Solaris and Windows) backing up Exchange, Oracle, SQL etc...

Anyways.. perhaps my stock comment wasn't too helpful but I can say that we haven't regretted our data domain purchase once in over 2 years.

Mark Glazerman
Desk: 314-889-8282
Cell: 618-520-3401
 please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

-----Original Message-----
From: Nardello, John [mailto]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 5:00 PM
To: Mark Glazerman
Cc: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

Careful Mark, remember that you get what you pay for. =)

- John Nardello

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
[mailto] On Behalf Of Mark
Glazerman
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:41 PM
To: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:QTM

I have $1... I'll take 3 shares and my change please.

Mark Glazerman
Desk: 314-889-8282
Cell: 618-520-3401
P please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-bounces < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
[mailto] On Behalf Of oersted
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:11 PM
To: VERITAS-BU < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Data Domain vs Quantum DXi

if you can wait a little while , there will be some interesting
solutions in this arena soon.

Robin Small wrote:
[quote]Thanks to the folks that commented on EMC's Avamar, it was helpful.

I'm curious now about DataDomain & Quantum DXi.

We run XioTech SANs and they're bundling a DD960(something) head on to
[/quote]the XioTech SAN.
[quote]We're also using ADIC (now Quantum) for our Tape hardware. So those
[/quote]two bubbled up to the top.
[quote]
I'm meeting with our Quantum sales & engineer guys on Monday to talk
[/quote]about it, and I was watching a DD/XioTech webinar about their offering
that looks cool. Both look appealing.
[quote]
I'm curious for the dedup users out there what your experience has
[/quote]been with either DD or Quantum.
[quote]
I've been poking through Curtis' blogs about the subject, so I get it
[/quote]that the Quantum can do either inline or post, and the DD is pure
inline. My RPO isn't as critical (most of my users are happy with the
prior night's data), so PostProcessing isn't a game-changer.
[quote]
Thanks,

~ Robin
[/quote]

+----------------------------------------------------------------------
|This was sent by solaris < at > cablespeed.com via Backup Central.
|Forward SPAM to abuse < at > backupcentral.com.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu < at > mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 04:30PM
[quote]- Data Domain seemed to be pushing the NAS/CIFS side a lot more than
their VTL. OpenStorage is great and all but you limit yourself to LAN
speeds.
[/quote]
Agreed, but wait til they release 10 Gb. Also, OST doesn't limit you to
LAN speeds -- DD's implementation of it does. Ask Quantum about theirs.
(I don't know what it does as it's not shipping yet.)

[quote]- Quantum owns the Rocksoft dedupe patent and Data Domain (short
[/quote]version
[quote]of the story) licenses it from them.
[/quote]
NO THEY DON'T. The REAL story is that Quantum (who at the time didn't
HAVE a shipping dedupe product) waited until DD was about to go public
and hit them with a "your stuff looks like it violates our patent"
lawsuit. DD thought the suit was BS, but they needed it to go away as
they were going public. They settled out of court for some change in
the millions to make it go away. There isn't a single line of shared
code between the two, neither is borrowing from the other, etc.

Anybody from Quantum who is telling you that DD is licensing their code
is speaking complete falsehood. They're probably not lieing, as that
would imply that they know the truth. It's a urban legend that too many
believe.

[quote]If anyone is going to optimize the
algorithm in future versions I seriously doubt it's going to be DD.
[/quote]
I believe the above information renders this point moot.

[quote]- The 7500 scales better than the DD690 IMHO. The 690 goes to, I
believe, ~25TB and the 7500 to 180TB.
[/quote]
Remember that just because you have the capacity doesn't mean you can
use it. DD stops their boxes at certain capacities because most
customers run out of bandwidth before they run out of space.

[quote]DD wanted to sell us multiple 690
heads to meet the throughput of the 7500. The downside of that is when
you have multiple heads you don't get a common block pool.
[/quote]
Agreed, but that functionality is supposed to ship RSN. And Quantum,
AFAICT, hasn't shipped it either. It's in the code but hasn't shipped.

[quote]- RAID 6 - DD does it, Quantum/EMC currently doesn't.
[/quote]
Yes they do. Everybody but NetApp has RAID6. And dedupe on RAID5 is
just insanity, IMHO.

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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 07, 2008 07:54PM
[quote][quote]Agreed, but wait til they release 10 Gb. Also, OST doesn't limit you
[/quote][/quote]to
LAN speeds -- DD's implementation of it does. Ask Quantum about theirs.
(I don't know what it does as it's not shipping yet.)

-- True, most, if not all, of the players are working on 10Gb. Would be
nice if the EMC/Quantum "partnership" would result in being able to
fiber attach the disk and bypass the LAN altogether. NAS/CIFS sucks for
any backup you actually care about throughput on IMHO.

[quote][quote]NO THEY DON'T. The REAL story is that Quantum (who at the time didn't
[/quote][/quote]HAVE a shipping dedupe product) waited until DD was about to go public
and hit them with a "your stuff looks like it violates our patent"
lawsuit. DD thought the suit was BS, but they needed it to go away as
they were going public. They settled out of court for some change in
the millions to make it go away. There isn't a single line of shared
code between the two, neither is borrowing from the other, etc.

Anybody from Quantum who is telling you that DD is licensing their code
is speaking complete falsehood. They're probably not lieing, as that
would imply that they know the truth. It's a urban legend that too many
believe.

--It's a variable length block size deduplication algorithm, the math is
above my pay grade but there's probably only so many ways you can do it
efficiently and apparently Riverbed thought it was bs and wanted it to
go away too. :) No one from any company has ever told me there was
shared code, I was simply working on the KISS principle in my previous
email and not trying to spend 10 paragraphs explaining it hence the
"short version of the story" comment. :)

[quote][quote]Remember that just because you have the capacity doesn't mean you can
[/quote][/quote]use it. DD stops their boxes at certain capacities because most
customers run out of bandwidth before they run out of space.

--Depends on how you want to use it and how long you plan on retaining
data on disk. YMMV

[quote][quote]Agreed, but that functionality is supposed to ship RSN. And Quantum,
[/quote][/quote]AFAICT, hasn't shipped it either. It's in the code but hasn't shipped.

--At what cost for the functionality on the Data Domain side? I never
got a straight answer how it was going to work. Again, don't have the
numbers in front of me but I believe even a single 7500 will ingest
faster than a single 690...definitely the 580.

[quote][quote]Yes they do. Everybody but NetApp has RAID6. And dedupe on RAID5 is
[/quote][/quote]just insanity, IMHO.

-- Quantum may have added it to the 9TB 7500 but last I checked they
were not shipping RAID 6.

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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 08, 2008 05:14PM
Hi Folks,

Anybody tried HP de-dup devices, just curious. It looks like my company will use DoubleTake and I am not sure how de-dup will fit in my multiple site envirionment without replication. I started using DSU for disk staging on FATA drives. But I was hoping to elemenate the tapes at the primary/colo site. I am thinking to invite different vendors and let them to come with their solutions, then I can analize and decide which one will work best for us.

Thank you,
Boris

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Stafford, Geoff <GStafford < at > barclaycardus.com ([email]GStafford < at > barclaycardus.com[/email])> wrote:
[quote]

[quote][quote]Agreed, but wait til they release 10 Gb. Also, OST doesn&#39;t limit you
[/quote][/quote]to
LAN speeds -- DD&#39;s implementation of it does. Ask Quantum about theirs.
(I don&#39;t know what it does as it&#39;s not shipping yet.)

-- True, most, if not all, of the players are working on 10Gb. Would be
nice if the EMC/Quantum "partnership" would result in being able to
fiber attach the disk and bypass the LAN altogether. NAS/CIFS sucks for
any backup you actually care about throughput on IMHO.

[quote][quote]NO THEY DON&#39;T. The REAL story is that Quantum (who at the time didn&#39;t
[/quote][/quote]HAVE a shipping dedupe product) waited until DD was about to go public
and hit them with a "your stuff looks like it violates our patent"
lawsuit. DD thought the suit was BS, but they needed it to go away as
they were going public. They settled out of court for some change in
the millions to make it go away. There isn&#39;t a single line of shared
code between the two, neither is borrowing from the other, etc.

Anybody from Quantum who is telling you that DD is licensing their code
is speaking complete falsehood. They&#39;re probably not lieing, as that
would imply that they know the truth. It&#39;s a urban legend that too many
believe.

--It&#39;s a variable length block size deduplication algorithm, the math is
above my pay grade but there&#39;s probably only so many ways you can do it
efficiently and apparently Riverbed thought it was bs and wanted it to
go away too. :) No one from any company has ever told me there was
shared code, I was simply working on the KISS principle in my previous
email and not trying to spend 10 paragraphs explaining it hence the
"short version of the story" comment. :)

[quote][quote]Remember that just because you have the capacity doesn&#39;t mean you can
[/quote][/quote]use it. DD stops their boxes at certain capacities because most
customers run out of bandwidth before they run out of space.

--Depends on how you want to use it and how long you plan on retaining
data on disk. YMMV

[quote][quote]Agreed, but that functionality is supposed to ship RSN. And Quantum,
[/quote][/quote]AFAICT, hasn&#39;t shipped it either. It&#39;s in the code but hasn&#39;t shipped.

--At what cost for the functionality on the Data Domain side? I never
got a straight answer how it was going to work. Again, don&#39;t have the
numbers in front of me but I believe even a single 7500 will ingest
faster than a single 690...definitely the 580.

[quote][quote]Yes they do. Everybody but NetApp has RAID6. And dedupe on RAID5 is
[/quote][/quote]just insanity, IMHO.

-- Quantum may have added it to the 9TB 7500 but last I checked they
were not shipping RAID 6.

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addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

Barclays [url=http://www.barclaycardus.com]www.barclaycardus.com[/url]

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[/quote]
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 09, 2008 12:49AM
[quote][quote]NAS/CIFS sucks for
any backup you actually care about throughput on IMHO.
[/quote][/quote]
OST isn't NAS/CIFS. It's a completely different protocol. Tests on DD
show it to be at least 100% faster than CIFS. (FWIW) Also, it can be
done over Fibre Channel, as some other vendors are working on.

[quote]--It's a variable length block size deduplication algorithm, the math
[/quote]is
[quote]above my pay grade but there's probably only so many ways you can do it
efficiently and apparently Riverbed thought it was bs and wanted it to
go away too. :) No one from any company has ever told me there was
shared code, I was simply working on the KISS principle in my previous
email and not trying to spend 10 paragraphs explaining it hence the
"short version of the story" comment. :)
[/quote]
But the short version you told isn't a summary of what happened. They
aren't licensing anything from Quantum. Their method was close enough
that Quantum thought they could sue them on patent infringement, and DD
settled to put an end to the lawsuit. (As did Riverbed.) None of that
translates into "DD is licensing Quantum's technology," which was your
short version. Neither, IMHO, should the settled lawsuit issue
translate into the deduction you made that Quantum would enhance the
technology before DD would.

I objected to the "short version" so strongly because Quantum sales reps
apparently continue to propagate it as a sales tactic, and that's just
BS. IMHO, it shouldn't in any way factor into your decision on which
product to buy.

[quote][quote]Remember that just because you have the capacity doesn't mean you can
use it. DD stops their boxes at certain capacities because most
customers run out of bandwidth before they run out of space.
[/quote][/quote]
[quote][quote][quote]--Depends on how you want to use it and how long you plan on
[/quote][/quote][/quote]retaining
[quote][quote][quote]data on disk. YMMV
[/quote][/quote][/quote]
While I agree that YMMV (especially in dedupe), I don't agree that this
is one of those areas. The problem is that if you store that much stuff
behind a single head, the performance can get so slow that the head
becomes unusable. (The bigger the datastore, the bigger the hash table.
The bigger the hash table, the longer hash lookups take, the worse
performance gets.) NOW... If you can fit 200 TB (or whatever number you
gave) in that thing and have the performance stay acceptable, I'll
change my mind.

[quote][quote]Agreed, but that functionality is supposed to ship RSN. And Quantum,
AFAICT, hasn't shipped it either. It's in the code but hasn't
[/quote][/quote]shipped.

[quote][quote]--At what cost for the functionality on the Data Domain side?
[/quote][/quote]
I'm not sure they know yet.

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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 10, 2008 06:57AM
[quote][quote]OST isn't NAS/CIFS. It's a completely different protocol. Tests on
[/quote][/quote]DD
show it to be at least 100% faster than CIFS. (FWIW) Also, it can be
done over Fibre Channel, as some other vendors are working on.

- I don't think it's really accurate to refer to OST as a protocol
although I have seen DD do it, it's an API but this is really just
semantics. In its current mode, the data path is over the LAN which is
what's important as it can be a significant bottleneck. Unless
something has changed very recently, DD will not present disk and do OST
over FC.

http://www.datadomain.com/pdf/DataDomain-OST-Datasheet.pdf

[quote][quote]I objected to the "short version" so strongly because Quantum sales
[/quote][/quote]reps
apparently continue to propagate it as a sales tactic, and that's just
BS. IMHO, it shouldn't in any way factor into your decision on which
product to buy.

- For the record, I've never heard that from Quantum and I was just
being lazy and didn't want to go deep into the legal side.

Curtis -

As we objectively discuss the pluses and minuses of the various
deduplication technologies out there, don't you think full disclosure
would be in order and it would be customary to mention that Glasshouse
is a partner of Data Domain?

http://www.datadomain.com/partners/technology-partners.html#glasshouse

Geoff Stafford
Barclaycard US
Data Protection Engineering
office:
mobile:

Barclays www.barclaycardus.com

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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 10, 2008 07:43AM
On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Curtis Preston <cpreston < at > glasshouse.com ([email]cpreston < at > glasshouse.com[/email])> wrote:
[quote] >>NAS/CIFS sucks for
[quote][quote]any backup you actually care about throughput on IMHO.
[/quote][/quote]

OST isn&#39;t NAS/CIFS. It&#39;s a completely different protocol. Tests on DD
show it to be at least 100% faster than CIFS. [/quote]
That doesn&#39;t take much - CIFS (pre-Windows 2008) isn&#39;t designed for high throughput. CIFS 2 (in Win2k8 and Vista) is supposed to be significantly faster and comparable to NFS performance.

Saying NAS/CIFS sucks isn&#39;t all that fair since NAS <> CIFS.

.../Ed

Ed Wilts, RHCE, BCFP, BCSD, SCSP, SCSE
[quote] ewilts < at > ewilts.org ([email]ewilts < at > ewilts.org[/email])[/quote]
Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 10, 2008 11:00AM
[quote]- I don't think it's really accurate to refer to OST as a protocol
although I have seen DD do it, it's an API but this is really just
semantics.
[/quote]
You'll get no argument from me there. I think it fits the LOOSE
definition of protocol, but I agree that it's better to call it an API.

[quote]In its current mode, the data path is over the LAN which is
what's important as it can be a significant bottleneck. Unless
something has changed very recently, DD will not present disk and do
[/quote]OST
[quote]over FC.
[/quote]
Agreed, but DD's not the only game in town with OST.

[quote]As we objectively discuss the pluses and minuses of the various
deduplication technologies out there, don't you think full disclosure
would be in order and it would be customary to mention that Glasshouse
is a partner of Data Domain?
[/quote]
Sure. GlassHouse is a partner of Data Domain. As a professional
services company, we're also a partner with EMC, Quantum, Dell,
IBM/Diligent, SEPATON, Symantec, COPAN, HDS, and just about every other
dedupe vendor out there. (It's important to state, however, that we
don't SELL any of them. We simply partner with them on helping their
customers use them better.) None of that has any bearing on what I say
or don't say about them.

It's funny. Whenever I'm really for something, or really against
something, people automatically assume there's got to be some money
behind it. The truth is you won't find another member of the storage
industry that's a bigger fighter for the truth -- whatever that is.
This actually gets me in a lot of trouble sometimes with those same
vendors. I don't care who "wins," or how good or bad I make something
look. I just want you and everyone else to be dealing in truth.

And the truth is that I actually didn't like OST when I first heard
about it, but I'm a convert. Consider my recent blog post about the
subject:

http://www.backupcentral.com/content/view/198/47/

Hopefully my answer will assuage any concerns that you or any other
readers might have that my posts are in some way tainted.

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Data Domain vs Quantum DXi
November 20, 2008 10:49AM
[quote][quote][quote]Agreed, but wait til they release 10 Gb. Also, OST doesn't limit you
[/quote][/quote]to
LAN speeds -- DD's implementation of it does. Ask Quantum about theirs.
(I don't know what it does as it's not shipping yet.)

-- True, most, if not all, of the players are working on 10Gb. Would be
nice if the EMC/Quantum "partnership" would result in being able to
fiber attach the disk and bypass the LAN altogether. NAS/CIFS sucks for
any backup you actually care about throughput on IMHO.

[quote][quote]NO THEY DON'T. The REAL story is that Quantum (who at the time didn't
[/quote][/quote]HAVE a shipping dedupe product) waited until DD was about to go public
and hit them with a "your stuff looks like it violates our patent"
lawsuit. DD thought the suit was BS, but they needed it to go away as
they were going public. They settled out of court for some change in
the millions to make it go away. There isn't a single line of shared
code between the two, neither is borrowing from the other, etc.

Anybody from Quantum who is telling you that DD is licensing their code
is speaking complete falsehood. They're probably not lieing, as that
would imply that they know the truth. It's a urban legend that too many
believe.

--It's a variable length block size deduplication algorithm, the math is
above my pay grade but there's probably only so many ways you can do it
efficiently and apparently Riverbed thought it was bs and wanted it to
go away too. :) No one from any company has ever told me there was
shared code, I was simply working on the KISS principle in my previous
email and not trying to spend 10 paragraphs explaining it hence the
"short version of the story" comment. :)

[quote][quote]Remember that just because you have the capacity doesn't mean you can
[/quote][/quote]use it. DD stops their boxes at certain capacities because most
customers run out of bandwidth before they run out of space.

--Depends on how you want to use it and how long you plan on retaining
data on disk. YMMV

[quote][quote]Agreed, but that functionality is supposed to ship RSN. And Quantum,
[/quote][/quote]AFAICT, hasn't shipped it either. It's in the code but hasn't shipped.

--At what cost for the functionality on the Data Domain side? I never
got a straight answer how it was going to work. Again, don't have the
numbers in front of me but I believe even a single 7500 will ingest
faster than a single 690...definitely the 580.

[quote][quote]Yes they do. Everybody but NetApp has RAID6. And dedupe on RAID5 is
[/quote][/quote]just insanity, IMHO.

-- Quantum may have added it to the 9TB 7500 but last I checked they
were not shipping RAID 6.

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Thats funny Geoff,
How in depth could your review have been since you did not mention one thing specifically that you observed that made one better then the other?

In fact it sounds like you don't even know what you bought and when questioned about it you start attacking Curtis' integrity on the issue.

It looks like you bought off of ppt, promises, price and a friendly handshake, none of which = as you state "in depth review". You are doing this community a disservice by portraying yourself as someone that has reviewed both of these technologies when in fact all you did is come on here and spread some of the same falsehoods that some sales reps like to do.

Maybe if you listened to experts like Curtis and others and actually took the time to put the technologies, whether it be EMC, NetApp, Data domain, Quantum or others, through its paces in your environment with your particular use-case, you would then have some "real" information to share with the readers of this forum. Maybe Barclays can afford to make technology purchases in this manner, but most organizations, mine included, require to have a "true" in depth look at the technologies, often refferred to as a POC, before making a major purchase like this. After all, these are lean times.
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