Backup Central

I've seen the discussions a few times about the null and skip ASM choices and how null is
usually what you want to use. I think null is the one I want to use in my safety net
client/group directive. However, a question (that I'm admitting I want to be lazy and not
actually test unless I have to):

With skip, I assume that if the safety net group (the one with ALL as the save set list and the
directive) runs second, that the index is munged and you don't see the files that were backed
up earlier. Conversely, if I understand this correctly, with null, if the safety net group
runs first, does the production group see the files in the index and think it doesn't need to
back them up? If that is correct, how does one assure that a group with a skip directive runs
first and the one with a null directive runs second? Or, have I completely misunderstood what
I read in the uasm manual page about null and skip?

Thanks,

--
Frank Swasey | http://www.uvm.edu/~fcs
Sr Systems Administrator | Always remember: You are UNIQUE,
University of Vermont | just like everyone else.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)


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Directives are found in the NW client resource and are consequently honored whenever this client resource is used for backups. Consequently, if you really want to use different directives for that client you must create multiple client resources and assign them to different groups.

BTW - during the backup, NW will not use the client index at all.
Walking down each path it will only look whether the existing file has changed since the last backup time.
On Windows, it will also use the MS built-in Change Journal, if available.

Bingo,

Directives are also defined on the server and assigned to the client in the definition on the
server. So, if I follow the logic, if the safety net group runs first, we have a problem no
matter what, unless the "last backup time" is associated with the group and not with the client
definition.

Frank

On 11/22/11 12:17 PM, bingo wrote:
Directives are found in the NW client resource and are consequently honored whenever this client resource is used for backups. Consequently, if you really want to use different directives for that client you must create multiple client resources and assign them to different groups.

BTW - during the backup, NW will not use the client index at all.
Walking down each path it will only look whether the existing file has changed since the last backup time.
On Windows, it will also use the MS built-in Change Journal, if available.

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--
Frank Swasey | http://www.uvm.edu/~fcs
Sr Systems Administrator | Always remember: You are UNIQUE,
University of Vermont | just like everyone else.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

Bingo,

Directives are also defined on the server and assigned to the client in the definition on the
server. So, if I follow the logic, if the safety net group runs first, we have a problem no
matter what, unless the "last backup time" is associated with the group and not with the client
definition.

Frank

On 11/22/11 12:17 PM, bingo wrote:
Directives are found in the NW client resource and are consequently honored whenever this client resource is used for backups. Consequently, if you really want to use different directives for that client you must create multiple client resources and assign them to different groups.

BTW - during the backup, NW will not use the client index at all.
Walking down each path it will only look whether the existing file has changed since the last backup time.
On Windows, it will also use the MS built-in Change Journal, if available.

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--
Frank Swasey | http://www.uvm.edu/~fcs
Sr Systems Administrator | Always remember: You are UNIQUE,
University of Vermont | just like everyone else.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)


via RSS at http://listserv.temple.edu/cgi-bin/wa?RSS&L=NETWORKER

Directives are also defined on the server and assigned to the client in the definition on the server.

----------

NW resources are in fact configured at the server. That was what i was talking about.
Local directive files on the client are possible but usually not used because their existence will be forgotten. This is especially important for skip/null directives.

I am still not clear why you want to backup files by an early group and skip them when you run a later group. As the group's major's attribute is the backup time, it does not matter when the file was backed up during the day - it will be omitted by the send attempt.
It might be a valid configuration but during all my years with NetWorker i encounter such one for the first time.

You still have the chance to test the behavior yourself.

Today at 10:06am, bingo wrote:

Directives are also defined on the server and assigned to the client in the definition on the server.

----------

NW resources are in fact configured at the server. That was what i was talking about.
Local directive files on the client are possible but usually not used because their existence will be forgotten. This is especially important for skip/null directives.

I am still not clear why you want to backup files by an early group and skip them when you run a later group. As the group's major's attribute is the backup time, it does not matter when the file was backed up during the day - it will be omitted by the send attempt.
It might be a valid configuration but during all my years with NetWorker i encounter such one for the first time.

Bingo, allow me to educate you.

I have a client with a single data drive (let's call it D) that has
20TB of data on it. Now, I can either define that client using "ALL"
and let NetWorker back up that drive D with a single stream, or I can
try to be efficient and break up the directories on the D drive so I
get multiple streams sending the data to NetWorker and hopefully get it
done in less than a week.

For the sake of example, let's say that I break it into 5 sub-trees:
D:\A, D:\B, D:\C, D:\D, and D:\E. So, I set up my client with the
following save sets:

C:\
D:\A
D:\B
D:\C
D:\D
D:\E

I add this client definition into my Production group.

And all is good until Joe the sys admin creates D:\F on me. Now, I've
got data that is not being backed up and eventually there is data loss
and Joe or I are gonna get fired (because it was the CEO's music
collection and he can't find all the CD's he stole that music off
again).

So, to protect my own job, I create a second client definition on the
server that has D:\ as its only save set, and I create a server side
directive that I assign to this client definition which says:

<< D:\A >>
+null: .
<< D:\B >>
+null: .
<< D:\C >>
+null: .
<< D:\D >>
+null: .
<< D:\E >>
+null: .

I add this second client definition into my Safety Net group.

Now, when Joe creates D:\F, my safety net group which has that second
client definition as its member backs it up, I see that it backed
something up and I go buy Joe a beer and get him to admit what he did,
then I can add D:\F to the original client definition and the server
side directive for the second one.

So, back to my question... Does the order of the Production and Safety
Net backup groups running make any difference in the goal to get all of
the data on D:\ backed up?


You still have the chance to test the behavior yourself.

I haven't forgotten, I was just hoping someone who has been doing this
for years would speak up and guide me as I am doing this for the first
time myself.

--
Frank Swasey | http://www.uvm.edu/~fcs
Sr Systems Administrator | Always remember: You are UNIQUE,
University of Vermont | just like everyone else.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)


via RSS at http://listserv.temple.edu/cgi-bin/wa?RSS&L=NETWORKER

Dear also Frank,

Not wanting to crowd the discussion
But it seems to me a legit solve you set
I would say that there should not be too much time between the both cos if the safety net backup is done and Joe then creates D:\G you have untill next safetynet backup to loose the ceo's mp3s

Regards
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind Regards

Frank Terveen
Senior Systems administrator / Senior Storage Administrator

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Swasey [mailto:Frank.Swasey < at > UVM.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 07:24 PM
To: NETWORKER < at > LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU <NETWORKER < at > LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Networker] null or skip

Today at 10:06am, bingo wrote:

Directives are also defined on the server and assigned to the client in the definition on the server.

----------

NW resources are in fact configured at the server. That was what i was talking about.
Local directive files on the client are possible but usually not used because their existence will be forgotten. This is especially important for skip/null directives.

I am still not clear why you want to backup files by an early group and skip them when you run a later group. As the group's major's attribute is the backup time, it does not matter when the file was backed up during the day - it will be omitted by the send attempt.
It might be a valid configuration but during all my years with NetWorker i encounter such one for the first time.

Bingo, allow me to educate you.

I have a client with a single data drive (let's call it D) that has
20TB of data on it. Now, I can either define that client using "ALL"
and let NetWorker back up that drive D with a single stream, or I can
try to be efficient and break up the directories on the D drive so I
get multiple streams sending the data to NetWorker and hopefully get it
done in less than a week.

For the sake of example, let's say that I break it into 5 sub-trees:
D:\A, D:\B, D:\C, D:\D, and D:\E. So, I set up my client with the
following save sets:

C:\
D:\A
D:\B
D:\C
D:\D
D:\E

I add this client definition into my Production group.

And all is good until Joe the sys admin creates D:\F on me. Now, I've
got data that is not being backed up and eventually there is data loss
and Joe or I are gonna get fired (because it was the CEO's music
collection and he can't find all the CD's he stole that music off
again).

So, to protect my own job, I create a second client definition on the
server that has D:\ as its only save set, and I create a server side
directive that I assign to this client definition which says:

<< D:\A >>
+null: .
<< D:\B >>
+null: .
<< D:\C >>
+null: .
<< D:\D >>
+null: .
<< D:\E >>
+null: .

I add this second client definition into my Safety Net group.

Now, when Joe creates D:\F, my safety net group which has that second
client definition as its member backs it up, I see that it backed
something up and I go buy Joe a beer and get him to admit what he did,
then I can add D:\F to the original client definition and the server
side directive for the second one.

So, back to my question... Does the order of the Production and Safety
Net backup groups running make any difference in the goal to get all of
the data on D:\ backed up?


You still have the chance to test the behavior yourself.

I haven't forgotten, I was just hoping someone who has been doing this
for years would speak up and guide me as I am doing this for the first
time myself.

--
Frank Swasey | http://www.uvm.edu/~fcs
Sr Systems Administrator | Always remember: You are UNIQUE,
University of Vermont | just like everyone else.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)


via RSS at http://listserv.temple.edu/cgi-bin/wa?RSS&L=NETWORKER

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Hey, Also Frank

Ah, no, both the Production and the Safety Net groups would be run every
day - so, the time for the CEO to add an MP3 for us to lose would be
minimal -- I'm not talking about a monthly safety net and a daily
production run.

Frank

Today at 6:30pm, Terveen, Frank wrote:

Dear also Frank,

Not wanting to crowd the discussion
But it seems to me a legit solve you set
I would say that there should not be too much time between the both cos if the safety net backup is done and Joe then creates D:\G you have untill next safetynet backup to loose the ceo's mp3s

Regards
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind Regards

Frank Terveen
Senior Systems administrator / Senior Storage Administrator

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Swasey [mailto:Frank.Swasey < at > UVM.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 07:24 PM
To: NETWORKER < at > LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU <NETWORKER < at > LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Networker] null or skip

Today at 10:06am, bingo wrote:

Directives are also defined on the server and assigned to the client in the definition on the server.

----------

NW resources are in fact configured at the server. That was what i was talking about.
Local directive files on the client are possible but usually not used because their existence will be forgotten. This is especially important for skip/null directives.

I am still not clear why you want to backup files by an early group and skip them when you run a later group. As the group's major's attribute is the backup time, it does not matter when the file was backed up during the day - it will be omitted by the send attempt.
It might be a valid configuration but during all my years with NetWorker i encounter such one for the first time.

Bingo, allow me to educate you.

I have a client with a single data drive (let's call it D) that has
20TB of data on it. Now, I can either define that client using "ALL"
and let NetWorker back up that drive D with a single stream, or I can
try to be efficient and break up the directories on the D drive so I
get multiple streams sending the data to NetWorker and hopefully get it
done in less than a week.

For the sake of example, let's say that I break it into 5 sub-trees:
D:\A, D:\B, D:\C, D:\D, and D:\E. So, I set up my client with the
following save sets:

C:\
D:\A
D:\B
D:\C
D:\D
D:\E

I add this client definition into my Production group.

And all is good until Joe the sys admin creates D:\F on me. Now, I've
got data that is not being backed up and eventually there is data loss
and Joe or I are gonna get fired (because it was the CEO's music
collection and he can't find all the CD's he stole that music off
again).

So, to protect my own job, I create a second client definition on the
server that has D:\ as its only save set, and I create a server side
directive that I assign to this client definition which says:

<< D:\A >>
+null: .
<< D:\B >>
+null: .
<< D:\C >>
+null: .
<< D:\D >>
+null: .
<< D:\E >>
+null: .

I add this second client definition into my Safety Net group.

Now, when Joe creates D:\F, my safety net group which has that second
client definition as its member backs it up, I see that it backed
something up and I go buy Joe a beer and get him to admit what he did,
then I can add D:\F to the original client definition and the server
side directive for the second one.

So, back to my question... Does the order of the Production and Safety
Net backup groups running make any difference in the goal to get all of
the data on D:\ backed up?


You still have the chance to test the behavior yourself.

I haven't forgotten, I was just hoping someone who has been doing this
for years would speak up and guide me as I am doing this for the first
time myself.



--
Frank Swasey | http://www.uvm.edu/~fcs
Sr Systems Administrator | Always remember: You are UNIQUE,
University of Vermont | just like everyone else.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)


via RSS at http://listserv.temple.edu/cgi-bin/wa?RSS&L=NETWORKER

So, back to my question... Does the order of the Production and Safety
Net backup groups running make any difference in the goal to get all of
the data on D:\ backed up?


You still have the chance to test the behavior yourself.

I haven't forgotten, I was just hoping someone who has been doing this
for years would speak up and guide me as I am doing this for the first
time myself.

----------------------

People are just thinking their specific and favorite ways - that's why misunderstandings happen.
I have to admit that I would have used a different approach and just would allow Joe to create new directories in a specific location or let him use an exclusive drive. But obviously this is not an option.

Your configuration (not repeated here) makes the scenario much clearer - and with respect to your question: yes, you will get all data.

I do this all the time, except that I use SKIP:, not NULL:, since the
files are already picked up by the other job.

<< D:\A >>
+null: .

<SNIP>

I add this second client definition into my Safety Net group.

I call mine "Catch All", so it catches anything that the enumerated job
misses.

Oh, and I run the "Catch All" (or "Safety Net") group first, and the
enumerated list later in the evening. Since the "Catch All" skips over
most things, it finishes very quickly, so I don't have lose too much time
waiting for a safe period for the enumerated job to start.


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For the sake of example, let's say that I break it into 5 sub-trees:
D:\A, D:\B, D:\C, D:\D, and D:\E. So, I set up my client with the
following save sets:

This will also make the job faster, as it will backup multiple streams at
once. Or so it has always appeared to me.

<SNIP>

So, to protect my own job, I create a second client definition on the
server that has D:\ as its only save set, and I create a server side
directive that I assign to this client definition which says:

I do this all the time, except that I use SKIP:, not NULL:, since the
files are already picked up by the other job.

<< D:\A >>
+null: .

<SNIP>

I add this second client definition into my Safety Net group.

I call mine "Catch All", so it catches anything that the enumerated job
misses.


via RSS at http://listserv.temple.edu/cgi-bin/wa?RSS&L=NETWORKER